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| Minhaaj: |
interesting new license term.
Sent at 5:59 AM on Sunday
| Leigh: |
ah good one
useful
| Minhaaj: |
not really but nice addition
best of the bad lot i guess.
| Leigh: |
What do you think about the technical benefit of CC.. the bit where by making attribution creates a historical link between ideas
| Minhaaj: |
I have written numerous posts and have explicity written in the 'tragedy of commons' article that it might be the solution to western problems but the very foundations on which CC movement stands are like deck of cards.
Over the years people have not only denounced Copyrights, they have risen up against CC too and they both are doomed to failure even if its not in so-called academic sector
| Leigh: |
how does the "east" reference work of others?
| Minhaaj: |
idea isn't about the usability, fairness and sharing of knowledge, its about the very notion of 'owning' the content.
there is no such thing as 'owning' of content in east.
| Leigh: |
yes, I understand all that
no one is talking about "owning" here
it is about technical links between ideas
like a reference
| Minhaaj: |
if you want to assume that contemporary state of laws and statutes in east does follow copyrights and are part of international IPR conventions, it might be true for governments but nobody is willing to give up their collective and freedom-based values for western ideals
| Leigh: |
you often reference religious authors and ideas for example
you must be ignoring me
| Minhaaj: |
well i believe the ideas of sharing and collaboration comes from religious injunctions but even if you don't see it in this context, we have a collective, family-centered culture who appreciates freedom
i should confess that i didn't get your question in first place
what do you mean by technical links between ideas ?
| Leigh: |
Just let me take a deep breath and calm myself
was getting quite annoyed just then..
what I mean is
if you make a short movie
| Minhaaj: |
sorry for getting your worked up.
| Leigh: |
and I make another version
if you have used a CC license, it tells me that you expect a reference (attribution)
nothing to do with ownership
just an expression from you that you want me to reference you if I use your version in mine
if I didn't reference you, then a technical link between our ideas would be lost
and someone would watch mine, and may never know about yours, and so loose the historical reference and benefits there in
| Minhaaj: |
Well if what i have produced is what i believe is beneficial for the mankind and i expect people to see it and use it for the betterment of humanity, atleast my morality doesn't expect even an intangible attribution to the brilliant idea. We being in academia have this stupid ego attached to us that prompts us to attach our names with the 'hot news' but in general its not something most of us would appreciate for others.
when we write papers we do give references and when someone does or collects the literature review or works review, he can put both our movies in references rather than one. and i have no problem with it.
more is good. it gives options, it gives different perspectives and its what we do all the time.
| Leigh: |
OK, but that assumes people are referecning.. We can assume that in academic traditions, but not in popular culture and media.. and so CC brings the moral obligation of referencing to pop media.. its not so much an ego thing (though many do it for that, but can be seen as a benefit to humanity - the link between ideas is new information in itself as you say.. 1 + 1 = 3 if you know what I mean
Sent at 6:12 AM on Sunday
| Minhaaj: |
well i don't see how it benefits humanity when the references can be pooled immensely without every work being cited to something else which would chain of findings for the researcher. I also don't agree with the assumption that its a moral obligation to attribute to someones work when actually no work in essence is 'completely' some single person's work. it includes experiences, knowledge and help of others over the time. so its not entirely someones work and since it isn't an individual and owned information, it cannot be patented as someones and prevents others to use it without attributing.
its a chain. if you don't attribute people who you got this knowledge from in first place and copyright the work as your own, i guess others have the right to do what we do on a fair playing ground unlike west.
:)
| Leigh: |
no, its not a single persons work.. so if each work included reference to another, that would become very clear to see
yes
it is a chain \
| Minhaaj: |
well it would be nice to see the 'original' works quote the works that they owed knowledge from but since it didn't happen, why now subsequent derivative works have the 'moral obligation' to quote from the works which were supposed to be quote the works it got information from?
| Leigh: |
well, the moral obligation has always been there, but as you say - the notion of copyright has broken that trust
| Minhaaj: |
An elluminate recording of your talk would be amazingly wonderful for both western and eastern crowd :)
| Leigh: |
then again.. in many respects it is impossble to reference al influences
| Minhaaj: |
well if no one budged and thought something was wrong with 'not' quoting the pre-historic works or ideals or experiences in todays so-called 'original' works then why all of a sudden some standford professor should be allowed to show up and say its unethical not to quote the original works which aren't original in essence
| Leigh: |
I could reference most obvious and recent ones
| Minhaaj: |
bingo. something i wanted to say and you did.
| Leigh: |
but at what poit do you stop referencing
| Minhaaj: |
its impossible to quote all tangible, intangible and implicative references
thats exactly the point. you stop refering all together. we didn't create google for nothing? why are we letting our inventions go down the drain for academic bullshit?
thats what google and facebook and wikis are for. we know that things and informations are out there to access without a single repository to access from or to attribute to.
thats what the notion of freedom is. thats our values and spirit of collaboration and sharing.
we have fought our entire lives to get rid of colonial miscreants and now we should let the get back into the game through the hind side? If you can't beat them, join them ? or just buy them?
| Leigh: |
yeah, I agree
but
Google et al, depend on electricity
I can't see it working still when the historians are digging up our artifacts from the ashes 10 thousand years from now
basically, since the Internet - we have nothing to show the future
| Minhaaj: |
its a far-fetched assumption in my opinion.
| Leigh: |
I don't think so..
| Minhaaj: |
we still have artifcats to show in museums that were protected by those historians still because they are here to stay.
let me complete
| Leigh: |
:)
| Minhaaj: |
we have internet and storage and media here to save our knowledge base for generations to come.
the capacity and storage techniques and way of communicating and handling the information might change when my son becomes as old as i am, but the very notion of sharing, preserving and passing on the knowledge would follow the same process as it has been since the genesis
Sent at 6:27 AM on Sunday
| Leigh: |
Well, I guess so long as 'this' civilisation remains, and the technologies we have survive.. you will be right.. but I don't think we can rely on that given it has never happened in any human history so far. Only back in the 80s where we all building nuclear bunkers and awaiting mutually assured distruction. But then, I guess the Interent was designed for that very same event. Personally, once a year I make a book of my writings and photos, just in case the lights go out, or something stops me and my daughter accessing my marks. AT least a book will last a few hundred years if I look after it
Sent at 6:30 AM on Sunday
| Minhaaj: |
well if you believe something can happen to internet and your works and knowledge base and your memories would be lost, i am not convinced that your putting them onto paper and printing it out for your generations to come would be a good idea specially when your assumption about internet is that, it would disappear or be destroyed by some invisible calamity. My question here is that how are you so sure that this calamity would only destroy your digital works and not your printed documents? and i am not yet talkin about the questions green movement guys are going to ask about your intentions to print out a book every year assuming that its good for everyone and everyone prints a book out for them.
Sent at 6:33 AM on Sunday
| Minhaaj: |
stumped you ? :)
Sent at 6:35 AM on Sunday
| Leigh: |
sorry. had to walk away..
| Minhaaj: |
np. Mind if i publish it to my blog? the chat log ?
:)
| Leigh: |
not at all
but just to reply
| Minhaaj: |
WITH attribution :)
though
lol
| Leigh: |
I can't be sure the book would survive
but
the book gives me more than just a backup
the act of picking up the book and flicking trhough it is still a lot easier than turning on a computer and clicking links.
So even if the Interent remains and electricity is as readily available, the book is still worth doing
it is a kind of backup
cross format
if I could go to Microfilm, I'd do that too
| Minhaaj: |
well if you wanted to put things and links together online, you didn't have to flick through the book if flicking through everything you've done is what you want. why take the pain to waste your time, energy and paper on that ?
| Leigh: |
you should try it
I have made 3 books so far
an album of my flickr
a book from my blog
and a book from a conference I ran
it is very satisfying to hold the book from those every now and then
just as satisfying as seeing them on the web years later
| Minhaaj: |
I am not as despondent about state of electricity as you seem to be, although i have survived 14 hour outages, but i'll save that for a boring day.
| Leigh: |
:)
| Minhaaj: |
If i were you, more satisfying would be the fact that knowledge i have created and things i've done for people who are benefitting from it, is out there, i wouldn't want more out of it.
| Leigh: |
its not a matter of wanting more out of it.. the process gives more
I wonder if I sent you a copy of my book, whether you would read a few articles from it.. then I bet you that you haven't gone back that far in my blog to have read those same articles
| Minhaaj: |
Well in both ways i don't seem to grasp the idea. I am not worried about my work being lost because of a calamity or the satisfaction that i will have from looking my book in my hand safe from electronic catastrophies :)
| Leigh: |
what about the satisfaction and comfort of just looking at your book in an arm chair under an electric light?
| Minhaaj: |
Well i wouldn't go far back in your blog, i'd probably wouldn't go as far down your book too. if thats the assumption atleast.
Well thats not a bad feeling to have at all, but i wouldn't be less satisfied dying with a feeling that what i have produced is out there for people to use.
:)
| Leigh: |
yah
perhaps my extreme example is distracting
it is enough to just make a book
that process in itself has benefit to me and others
and it also serves as a cross format backup
perhaps that backup would never be needed
| Minhaaj: |
Well i don't see a reason in making a book even if we don't talk about the physical resources it takes and effect on global greenery. Its like going back to carts after having cars. No better way to mistrust technology and to disavow it.
| Leigh: |
know.. you must consider the book as a has been technology then.. I consider it as an essential technology that is enhanced by the internet
*no
or, the internet is enhanced by a book
(and micorfilm :)
microfilm
as for the green point.. I look forward to the day when lulu.com print on sugar cane paper
| Minhaaj: |
hehe.
Well if you have to microfilm it, whats wrong with keeping it in pdf format? how do you intend to use microfilm?
| Leigh: |
ah
I need to tell you my invention
| Minhaaj: |
if you argument about electricity crisis is assumed valid for the sake of conversation
| Leigh: |
it is a film viewer that reflects sunlight
it is a hyperlinked microfilm viewer
all mechanical
no batteries
no power
all passive
I thought it up after an earth quake knocked us out of the computers for 2 weeks
weekly microfilm backups
| Minhaaj: |
Well as much as i'd like to hand out copies of your invention, i believe not everyone would be enthusiastic about using microfilms for their children's education 100 years from now, leaving the debate about society's visual learning appreciation e.g YouTube, SecondLife and Technology.
| Leigh: |
:)
| Minhaaj: |
Well i don't know if you've come up with the plan to save microfilms from earthquake or not, but thats going to be a good research question.
| Leigh: |
my kids will love steroscopic film
stereoscopic
and super8 movies
| Minhaaj: |
thats something your kids are supposed to answer and i guess it should be left with them to find a way to conserve your knowledge. You are more or less done with the job of creating it.
| Leigh: |
old tech
:)
yeah
but they need to appreciate why you and I think the Internet is so great
because we haven't always been fish
we notice the water
| Minhaaj: |
I really think they should but how they appreciate and conserve it to their own use should be their decision and not ours. so i guess keeping microfilm for your own memories is the best way to tone down your paranoia but your kids shouldn't have your qualms about 'fear of unknown'
:)
| Leigh: |
well said
:)
lol
blush
| Minhaaj: |
hehe i'd say good day on this 'blush' note then.
| Leigh: |
:)
good chat
cu
| Minhaaj: |
before the electricity goes out and earthquake erupts
:) bye
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